Ep. 045 - George Varanakis: The Architect of Engagement
George Varanakis is a true cornerstone in the photography world, and in our latest chat, we dive into the inner workings of the conferences he helped spearhead, WPPI and the Portrait Masters. We’re talking about how he’s not just a guy pulling the strings behind the scenes, but a genuine connector who builds communities that thrive. George is honest and open about what it really takes to pull off a massive conference like WPPI, from the emotional labor to the logistics, all while keeping the vibe high and the energy infectious. Plus, we ponder the future of creative education — online and in-person — and how to keep that spark alive when everything feels like it’s changing at lightning speed. It’s like a cocktail of insights, humor, and great stories that you won’t want to miss!
Podcast Title: Generator
Episode Title: George Varanakis: The Architect of Engagement
Episode Number: 45
Publish Date: 18 April 2025
Episode Overview
George Varanakis, the mastermind behind some of the most significant educational platforms in the photography industry, is our special guest today. Known for his behind-the-scenes role at events like WPPI, Creative Live, and the Portrait Masters Conference, George shares insights into the hard work that goes into organizing such large-scale events. We dive into the nitty-gritty details of what it takes to create a successful conference experience, from managing teams to dealing with unexpected challenges. George emphasizes the importance of community building and how fostering connections among photographers can elevate the overall experience. He reflects on his journey from working at Rangefinder Magazine to becoming a strategic consultant for trade show giant Emerald, showcasing the evolution of the photography landscape and the shift towards online education. Whether you're a seasoned pro or just starting, this conversation will inspire you to look at photography education in a new light and understand the value of community and connection in our industry.
Takeaways:
- George Varanakis shares insights on the behind-the-scenes hustle at WPPI, revealing the immense effort that goes into organizing a massive photography conference.
- We dive into the evolution of online education in photography, discussing how platforms like Sue Bryce Education are reshaping creative learning.
- George emphasizes the importance of community in photography, explaining how events foster connections that extend beyond just networking.
- The conversation highlights the need for continuous feedback to improve conferences, as George insists that listening to attendees is key to making every event better.
- We explore the balance between online and in-person experiences in photography education, as George outlines strategies to keep the excitement alive year-round.
- George and I chat about the power of collaboration, especially how he and Sue Bryce's creative synergy leads to groundbreaking ideas in the photography industry.
Resources and Links
Calls to Action
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Transcript
Hey there.
Speaker A:It's good to see you again and have I got a great one for you today.
Speaker A:My guest is one of those people who's been quietly shaping the photography industry for decades.
Speaker A:You may not always see him in the spotlight, but if you've ever attended WPPI or learned from CreativeLive, or followed the portrait masters, then you felt the impact of George Varanakis.
Speaker A:While I've known George for years, it's a little hard to define him.
Speaker A:He's not just an event guy, he's not just a business strategist.
Speaker B:He.
Speaker A:He's not just the big idea guy behind WPPI and TPM and CreativeLive.
Speaker A:He's a connector.
Speaker A:He's a true builder of communities.
Speaker A:And in this episode, we of course talk about WPPI and bringing behind the scenes of what it takes to put on a show that size.
Speaker A:But we talk about what it takes to lead from behind the curtain.
Speaker A:The physical and emotional labor of building something legendary, and what the future of creative education really looks like, both online and offline.
Speaker A:George opens up about managing teams and personal growth and the challenge of reinvention and what it takes to stay human in an industry that's constantly chasing the next big thing.
Speaker A:The thing I love about this episode is that it's exactly like the conversations that he and I have after every conference.
Speaker A:We steal away to some bar and just trade field notes.
Speaker A:And it's the thing I look most forward to every year.
Speaker A:George is one of those guys that never wants the spotlight because it's all about the team, the community, and the overall experience.
Speaker A:But I think it's important to hear directly from the folks that are shaping and influencing what we all see, what we all hear, and what we all experience year in and year out.
Speaker A:If you've ever felt like you want to know more about how this industry really works, but the world is changing faster than you can keep up with, then it's time to sit down with a true visionary.
Speaker A:So let's get on with the show as I sit down with the one and only George Varanakis.
Speaker A:You know, whenever I'm kind of in my post conference phase, there's always this big dip, right?
Speaker A:You come out of the conference and you have to go 100 miles an hour playing catch up, and then all of a sudden you're all caught up.
Speaker A:And then generally there's this like week long dip, and I feel like I'm in that week long dip.
Speaker A:Do you ever have free time?
Speaker B:I try to carve out time like I Box in the morning.
Speaker B:I've got a workout thing in the.
Speaker B:In the afternoon.
Speaker B:So I try to, like, not just be on the hamster wheel all the time.
Speaker B:So I took up the two most frustrating sports you possibly could, which is golf, then boxing, and, you know, boxing looks easy.
Speaker B:It's so not easy.
Speaker B:Like, there's so many things that go into it, and I feel like I have two left hands and two left feet most time in both sports.
Speaker B:And so it's just like, it's incredibly frustrating.
Speaker B:Have you boxed before?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:I've done a lot of hand to hand stuff.
Speaker A:And there is nothing that wears you out faster or shows you how out of shape you are than trying to go three minutes at, you know, full contact, going for it.
Speaker B:I don't care if it's karate, boxing, you know, any type of mma.
Speaker B:Like, it is so hard, it's crazy.
Speaker B:I hate cardio.
Speaker B:So it's just a great kind of workout that you can running or sprinting or anything else.
Speaker A:It was Krav Maga back in the day.
Speaker B:Oh, nice.
Speaker A:So do a lot of that.
Speaker A:But I don't love running on a treadmill.
Speaker A:So you go and you fight people, right?
Speaker A:You work, you work it out on the mat.
Speaker A:But to test up for belts, you know, you have to take on three, four, five people at a time.
Speaker A:And you're just kind of in this ring and you're going around.
Speaker A:I felt every time like my heart was literally going to explode.
Speaker A:You know, you do this and it's 300, 400 beats a minute, and I'm like, man, the cardio ain't working.
Speaker A:Like, I thought the cardio was supposed to work.
Speaker A:Golf, on the other hand, such a.
Speaker B:Crazy game in that I went through a FA.
Speaker B:I just started about four years ago.
Speaker B:And, like, the first two years were rough.
Speaker B:My third year, it was awesome.
Speaker B:I was shooting in the 80s, which is all I wanted.
Speaker B:I just want to be competitive with my friends.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then I don't know what happened.
Speaker B:And now I'm back to, like, where I started, and it's just like, oh, the lessons and the crap and the.
Speaker B:And you go, is this even?
Speaker B:Is this worth it?
Speaker B:Like, what am I doing?
Speaker B:Me?
Speaker A:It makes me laugh because what happened was you started thinking about it, you tried to get better, and you screwed it all up.
Speaker A:I grew up playing golf.
Speaker A:I used to teach golf.
Speaker A:I worked at a country club for, you know, a decade.
Speaker A:I know golf.
Speaker A:And the second that I tried to get better, playing competitively through high school and college, the more that I tried to get better, the worse I got.
Speaker B:Well, next time you're out here, let's play.
Speaker B:I would love to.
Speaker A:I'd love to.
Speaker A:I never bring my clubs on trips, but I would love to.
Speaker A:Let's talk a little bit.
Speaker A:I might as well start with WPPI coming out of that.
Speaker A:What'd you think?
Speaker B:I thought we had a good show.
Speaker B:Moving into a new hotel is always tough because now you have a new staff that you're working with on their side.
Speaker B:There's things you don't know about the hotel.
Speaker B:Like we did about the Mirage.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so that was tough, but I think by the end, we kind of got things figured out.
Speaker B:I thought overall it was a good show.
Speaker B:I thought a lot of exhibitors had a good show.
Speaker B:The education was great.
Speaker B:The parties were super fun.
Speaker B:I love the new space that we had.
Speaker B:It kind of got.
Speaker B:Could accommodate everybody.
Speaker B:And we didn't really have a lot of things that popped up this year.
Speaker B:I mean, other than, like the hotel room kind of fiasco, which was not great.
Speaker B:That will hopefully be alleviated for next year as they start doing the next Tower.
Speaker B:But all in all, I thought it was a good show.
Speaker B:I did.
Speaker A:I think the same thing.
Speaker A:There have been a bunch of these conversations that I have with all my friends.
Speaker A:You know, everybody gets back home, and you start talking about how the show went.
Speaker B:And, yeah, any of the.
Speaker A:The quote unquote problems that I heard about were all hotel related, not conference related.
Speaker A:You have to look at these bigger conferences.
Speaker A:Let me tell you your job for a second, George.
Speaker A:So you have to look at these.
Speaker A:You have to look at these things as like the hotel side and the conference center side.
Speaker A:And what you bought a ticket for was basically the conference side and the hotel side just made it convenient for you to stay close.
Speaker A:And people forget that the people that organize the conferences have not a whole lot of say in what's happening at the hotel.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And you just do your best to adapt to whatever may be coming your way.
Speaker A:Doesn't sound about right.
Speaker A:Like you're.
Speaker A:All your mental energy has got to be focused on the conference.
Speaker B:Yeah, agree.
Speaker B:Unfortunately, we had way too many problems with, like, hotel rooms and things like that.
Speaker B:Those things you can't control, and it's super frustrating.
Speaker B:I think the biggest thing is I.
Speaker B:I got a lot of feedback, like, why the Rio like, you know, kind of thing.
Speaker B:And honestly, this show is.
Speaker B:It's too expensive to go on the strip.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The ticket cost would be over a thousand dollars a person.
Speaker B:We just can't do that.
Speaker B:The food and beverage like what people don't know behind the scenes is like they have food and beverage minimums that you have to hit which are like close to a million dollars for most of these hotels.
Speaker B:You just can't do it.
Speaker B:There's just no way to make it work.
Speaker B:The math doesn't work.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:And then we're too big trade show and conference to go to some of the medium sized hotels, maybe a little bit off the strip.
Speaker B:So for example, like the Palms, which would be a.
Speaker B:But we're just too big for it, which is, you know, you're stuck in a rock and a hard place.
Speaker B:So the Rio I think will get better as time goes by with the Hyatt coming in and owning it.
Speaker B:Like they have to pass all these different tests.
Speaker B:So that part I think is only going to get better, which is great.
Speaker A:It's nice to see that the first year in this new place, not really knowing what you're walking into.
Speaker A:That it did go so smoothly.
Speaker A:I've been trying to have these conversations and you probe around the edges and try to get a feel for what is it that people were looking for.
Speaker A:And it seems to be there's a lot of satisfaction.
Speaker A:Obviously there's always nitpicks.
Speaker A:I didn't like this restaurant or that.
Speaker A:I don't care about any of that.
Speaker A:I want to know, did the trade show work?
Speaker A:Do the educators good?
Speaker A:Were we missing something?
Speaker A:When I look and talk to people about feedback, as I'm sure you do, you're always listening for these things.
Speaker A:I didn't hear a lot about the conference itself.
Speaker A:It seemed like everything went from the outside, right.
Speaker A:So I'm on the outside.
Speaker A:It looked like it went pretty smoothly.
Speaker A:I had a great time for the most part.
Speaker B:We want to really get show.
Speaker B:The summits I thought were really good.
Speaker B:The instructors are awesome.
Speaker B:Like I think a lot of the instructors that we had for all the summits were fantastic.
Speaker B:We did some, some new stuff this year.
Speaker B:We kind of like we were calling it plug and play with like the lap masters came in and that had a great audience to the cookout came in, fearless came in and so you kind of plug and play these smaller conferences into the big one I think is so great because everybody wants to be with like their type of people, whether you're a portrait photographer, wedding photographer.
Speaker B:That's why I, the portrait masters worked so well because it was very niche.
Speaker B:You had portrait photographers coming together in, in one place, which is great.
Speaker B:And we kind of tried to do that with the summit, so you could be with, like, your people.
Speaker B:And there's a lot of networking and learning going on outside of the educational part.
Speaker B:It's talking to other photographers in other states and what they do and how they price, how they sell and how they do all the different things.
Speaker B:And that's what you get.
Speaker B:I think you almost get more out of that than what you see on the stage.
Speaker B:The stage is great, but, like, learning what other people do in the networking part of WPPI has always been such a huge.
Speaker B:A huge thing for the show.
Speaker B:It's really just all about the community coming together, having a great time, but also kind of learning, too.
Speaker B:I think the one thing that we.
Speaker B:The tagline I think we always used back in the day was like, learn Party network kind of thing.
Speaker B:That's really kind of what it is.
Speaker B:Like, the parties are super fun.
Speaker B:We always want to make sure that, like, people are having a good time.
Speaker B:You're kind of hosting a party in the end of the day.
Speaker B:I always kind of look at it like that.
Speaker B:Like you're hosting a party, you want everybody to have the best time possible and you want to make sure that they come back to your parties in the future.
Speaker B:And that is kind of how I've always looked at it and how you treat people and making sure that, like, we all look, there's always things we can improve on in customer service across the board.
Speaker B:Sure, no one doubts, but you'll do everything you can to try to make sure that you have a higher batting average than most.
Speaker B:Because you just want people to enjoy themselves and learn from the best instructors in the industry and meet fellow photographers and be able to, like, go to the parties and go to the shooting bays and learn that way too.
Speaker B:There's so many different learning aspects of that show.
Speaker B:It goes just beyond what you're really seeing.
Speaker B:Like, you just think it's like a conference and trade show, but there's so many different aspects of Deadly ppf.
Speaker B:And then there's like all the ups that are happening around it too.
Speaker B:People are going out in the.
Speaker B:And doing shoots and stuff, which is very.
Speaker B:It's awesome.
Speaker B:It's great.
Speaker A:How many times during the week at a conference do you think I should have switched careers?
Speaker B:If you.
Speaker B:Oh, that's really funny.
Speaker A:We'll have to answer that.
Speaker A:Let that one marinate for a little bit.
Speaker B:It really depends on if you would have called times during the show.
Speaker A:Well, I think, you know, one of the things that you've been known for over the years is this aspect of community building.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Because you are the perfect host, because you make sure that everybody is having a good time and that you're listening and validating their concerns.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:You might be able to fix some things, you might not, but you're so focused on community and experience and connecting folks together.
Speaker A:You're in this perfect position to do what you do, and the influence is seen everywhere.
Speaker A:The community aspect that you were just talking about a minute ago, I think is really what made this year special.
Speaker A:And what, you know, I've seen at the Portrait Masters for years is this really tight sense of community at a conference.
Speaker A:And as they get bigger, obviously, it gets a little bit more difficult to keep that feeling going.
Speaker A:But with all of these different groups at WPPI this year, I didn't feel like there was no community.
Speaker A:I felt like there were all these communities starting to really get together and recognize each other, rather than them being this archipelago of independent islands that can't exist in the same space at the same time.
Speaker A:It seemed like everything really came together well.
Speaker B:What's.
Speaker A:What's kind of that secret sauce in community?
Speaker A:Is it just treating people well?
Speaker B:That's a big part of it.
Speaker B:I think the summits were another big part of it, too, because, as like I was saying earlier, you get to be with your people.
Speaker B:I think that's a huge part of it.
Speaker B:And I appreciate your feedback.
Speaker B:I think it's good.
Speaker B:The thing that I always try to do, I try to listen to everybody, whether it's one of the major vendors or just an attendee.
Speaker B:Like, I just want feedback.
Speaker B:I used to drive Stu crazy because, like, on the way home from Porsche Masters every year, I'd be like, okay, here's what we do.
Speaker B:Like, I talked to so and so, and I think we could do this, this, this.
Speaker B:She'd be like, chill out for, like, a week.
Speaker B:Can you?
Speaker B:But, like, your mind just keeps going.
Speaker B:You can't help it.
Speaker B:And this year, I came back and I was like, oh, we could do this, we could do this, we could do this.
Speaker B:It probably exhausted the crap out of everybody that I worked with, but at the end of the day, that I feel like that's how you get better, is always thinking forward, how do we make this better?
Speaker B:How do we.
Speaker B:Like, how do we take the shooting days from the TPM days and incorporate them into wppi?
Speaker B:And I think it's been a huge hit so far.
Speaker B:I mean, last year it was packed.
Speaker B:This year it was packed.
Speaker B:And it's a huge added value.
Speaker B:You know, we also Want to make this show affordable for everybody.
Speaker B:If you look at the other shows, they're much more expensive than wppi.
Speaker B:You could literally go for free on a trade show pass and go shoot the shooting days and sit in like a lot of the vendors that had stages and presentations and there was a lot of them this year and learn from the best on the planet.
Speaker B:Like there's no better deal in town.
Speaker B:So I feel like we create, we try to create this amazing experience for people and we try to make it affordable for everybody to come in this year.
Speaker B:You're right.
Speaker B:It did feel like I could see where you can make a pretty good case where it was very clicky in the past.
Speaker B:It didn't feel like that this year.
Speaker B:I don't know what the magic sauce was other than trying to listen to people and like really try to put on the best show we possibly could.
Speaker B:But it has a lot to do with the attendees and being open to like talking to other people and we.
Speaker B:I've always done like for new newbies like the red ribbon.
Speaker B:If you're here by yourself to try to make sure and welcome people in, like, that's a huge thing.
Speaker B:Like, I don't know if I would even go to a show by myself.
Speaker B:I probably would, I have in the past.
Speaker B:But like I'm selling booths to other people or something like that.
Speaker B:Like as an attendant, to go by yourself, that's really intimidating.
Speaker B:And I consider myself fairly outgoing and like, it's tough.
Speaker B:And so the things that we put in place like the red ribbon and things like that for new people goes so far.
Speaker B:It's great.
Speaker B:Like you never have to eat lunch by yourself because other people would see that you had the red ribbon and they come over and talk to you.
Speaker B:That's great.
Speaker B:That's how you build the community, is making feel everybody feel welcome.
Speaker A:I don't know how much you influence the online community of wppi.
Speaker A:Kind of like the outward facing social media side, maybe some of the communications, but you've always had such a focus on community and as these things start to expand and grow, it can really go two ways.
Speaker A:People can dive and lean into the community aspect of it and really try to keep things close.
Speaker A:Or it can become so disparate and so separated that it kind of loses all sense of community.
Speaker A:Even though you might have these small little groups that were like, oh, this is a great conference, but if I'm going in as an individual and I don't know what I'm walking into, if I went this Year I would not have felt the same cliquishness that I did last year or the year before.
Speaker A:That's not to say there were bad conferences, it's just the vibe was totally different.
Speaker A:And this year felt really inclusive.
Speaker A:That no matter where I went, maybe it was the fact that trade shows were.
Speaker A:The trade show was separated out so it didn't feel as crowded, but it was still the same amount of people.
Speaker A:And maybe that took pressure off, but it felt like I could walk around, see the people that I needed to see, not get hassled by crowds.
Speaker A:Watch Brooke Shaden teaching, watch Lindsey Adler teacher just on these side stages.
Speaker A:And it felt very inclusive.
Speaker B:It's really Sally Sargood, who's just been incredible as our cpmr.
Speaker B:She should definitely be on too because she's just so smart and so good.
Speaker B:Aaron Anderson, who kind of oversees the whole show, who again is so incredibly brilliant and so good and like.
Speaker B:And I've worked with Aaron, God, for a long, long time since Creative Live.
Speaker B:So like there's just a vibe within our staff.
Speaker B:Like everybody's known each other for a really long time and that really helps putting on big shows.
Speaker B:Like people think like PPI, you're owned by a corporation, you probably have 50 people working on the show.
Speaker B:There's six, there's six people literally putting on the show like every day, kind of day to day type of stuff.
Speaker B:There's a lot of other departments that kind of plug in for different things and we have a lot of amazing volunteers.
Speaker B:And the volunteers I have to give so much credit to because they work their tails off.
Speaker B:I mean we, everybody works their tails off.
Speaker B:It's impossible not to at that show.
Speaker B:But they give so much to that show.
Speaker B:It is incredible that they do.
Speaker B:Like I can't give them enough props because they really make the show go, I mean from everything from like welcoming and telling people, you know, where to go.
Speaker B:The show this year, obviously you're in a new place and that one is a little difficult to manage because there's three different rooms.
Speaker B:You got the Fuji room, the smaller trade show, the bigger one, plus the classes that are passed there.
Speaker B:It's tough to manage.
Speaker B:And I thought they did a really good job of like not only managing the shooting bays but also helping all the other attendees because that, it all flows downhill, right?
Speaker B:Like that mentality of every.
Speaker B:The six of us of all kind of planning this and then the volunteers that come on, they.
Speaker B:It all kind of your vibe and your like attitude towards everything really, it just, it does, it's infectious.
Speaker B:And again, we have one of the best staffs I've ever worked with, and we do a lot with very little.
Speaker A:The leadership team there is definitely world class, and I don't say that to blow smoke.
Speaker A:I've seen a lot of leadership teams, and you guys kind of have it dialed in.
Speaker A:The amount of energy that Aaron Anderson brings.
Speaker A:I never saw that guy sit down once, and I'm kind of worried about him.
Speaker A:Like, does he have an off switch?
Speaker A:Because he was running around handing out cameras.
Speaker A:And then I see him, you know, directing people over here, and then he's.
Speaker A:He's seemingly.
Speaker A:It's like multiplicity with.
Speaker A:With Michael Keaton.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:There's just versions of Aaron everywhere, and I never know which one is the real one.
Speaker A:So you nailed it.
Speaker B:He's the Energizer Bunny.
Speaker B:He just doesn't stop.
Speaker A:I thought Kellen in the production crew, Angela Anderson doing everything with the bays.
Speaker A:Unsung heroes that really need to be raised up on a pedestal a little bit, because they're the ones that are really keeping everything moving, you know, and it's a huge testament to them.
Speaker A:And these are small crews, man.
Speaker A:They're small teams, and it's great.
Speaker B:And you've seen Kellen for years.
Speaker B: n, I worked with Kellen since: Speaker B:Like, we've worked 13, 14 years together, which is crazy.
Speaker B:And same with Aaron.
Speaker B:And then you have Arlene that oversees all the conference, and she does an incredible job and has so many amazing relationships with everybody at the show.
Speaker B:And then on the sales side, you have Dennis, who does such an incredible job to get all the vendor.
Speaker B:He's selling the majority of the booths.
Speaker B:There's over 100 booths that he's selling.
Speaker B:100 clients, not 100 booths.
Speaker B:100 clients.
Speaker B:And that is not easy to do.
Speaker B:So you have a small team doing an incredible amount of work.
Speaker A:I must have walked by Dennis 30 or 40 times, and he was always on his way to someone's booth, and he's always just working the crowd.
Speaker A:And sometimes he was awake, sometimes he wasn't, but he was still in motion.
Speaker A:And you're still going.
Speaker B:You know, he's really works tail off.
Speaker B:He's great.
Speaker B:And that's the other thing.
Speaker B:Like, we've all known each other forever, because being at wpi, he was at another show.
Speaker B:And so we've won each other forever.
Speaker B:I've known Sally forever.
Speaker B:Sally was in our wedding.
Speaker B:Like, I've known Aaron forever.
Speaker B:I've known Arlene probably longer than everybody.
Speaker B: e started working together in: Speaker B:So you also have a lot of relationships there.
Speaker B:And the one person that we haven't talked about is Monir, who is the logistical queen of the whole show.
Speaker B:It's just incredible what she does.
Speaker B:My mind doesn't work like that.
Speaker B:I mean, we could actually do the show without her because I can't think like that.
Speaker B:And she, she just puts everything together so well.
Speaker B:I can't give our team enough props because they are so incredibly talented.
Speaker B:And if people actually knew and went behind the curtain and saw the size of our crew and what they actually do, you'd be absolutely amazed.
Speaker A:Yeah, the, the amount that you pull off with the amount of resources that you have is kind of like a master class in efficiency.
Speaker A:Great job on wppi.
Speaker A:And we could, you know, we could spend hours just talking about this show.
Speaker A:But I want to go back a little bit because you mentioned that you've, you've worked with a lot of these folks for a lot of the years.
Speaker A:So back in the Creative Live days, you've seen all this progression of education since Creative.
Speaker A: Well, since WPPI in: Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You're kind of moving through the industry and you've watched communities come and go and you've seen evolution of education going from online and you still have the traditional in person retreats and workshops.
Speaker A:Where do you think this is going?
Speaker A:And has there been part of the past that you're like, oh, we should bring that back?
Speaker A:Because everything kind of circles around in trends.
Speaker A:Is there anything that you would want to bring back?
Speaker B:Yeah, there's a few things I don't know if they will like the registration day that we did at TPM with Fuji Felt was incredible.
Speaker B:It was the coolest thing.
Speaker B:One of the cooler things I've ever done the year before, I don't know.
Speaker B:Were you at every tpm except for.
Speaker A:The very first one?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:The very first one, which was rough because it was a heat wave in Palm Springs in September, so people just melting.
Speaker B:It was like 120 degrees.
Speaker B:I was like, we were just doing.
Speaker B:We ended up doing it.
Speaker B:It was, we just had great shows.
Speaker B: But in: Speaker B:It was really hard.
Speaker B:You couldn't, you couldn't do it again.
Speaker B:So if you were there in 18.
Speaker A:And you got the Stella, Mine's sitting right over there.
Speaker B:But like maybe like the registration day or something like it, like for example, Test drive was.
Speaker B:I don't know if you went to the test drive.
Speaker B:But we had about 30 exhibitors.
Speaker B:It was tabletop, it was Sunday happy hour type of.
Speaker B:I think it went from like 6 till 9 and we had probably 500 people in there.
Speaker B:It was great.
Speaker B:And it was an idea I had way back in the day at wpi.
Speaker B:We did this thing called Launchpad and we wanted, we encouraged all the companies to come in and launch new products at WPI and it was incredibly successful.
Speaker B:And so we tried to do something similar to that.
Speaker B:It was really for new exhibitors that hadn't been to WPPI before or if they had.
Speaker B:It was just a way to get in front of people before the show started and it was very low key.
Speaker B:We had a DJ and a bar and it was a really cool setup.
Speaker B:We'll probably do more stuff like that because I think it's just great.
Speaker B:That's more people getting together, meeting new people, you know, connecting with vendors that might benefit.
Speaker B:Benefit you down the road.
Speaker B:So it was just a win, win I thought for everybody.
Speaker B:So things that.
Speaker B:You're right.
Speaker B:Things like that always kind of come back around.
Speaker B:I do think there's value in both, both online and, and trade shows and conferences.
Speaker B:One WBBI only happens, you know, it's a year so.
Speaker B:And then you know, the online education should be things you're doing year round to keep learning and improving your craft.
Speaker B:Whether it's sales, marketing, lighting.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:There's room for both.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:When I used to go to shot show every year they used to have, especially in the, the, the later years that I was there, so 16, 17, I was writing for magazines and doing all my editorial stuff and there were, you know, a separate room throughout the entire show that media, new media, podcasters, bloggers, whatnot could go into and talk to reps.
Speaker A:And it was staffed all week and it was kind of like the hands on.
Speaker A:Dig into this a little bit more away from the crowds.
Speaker A:And this Launchpad idea sounds very similar to what I was seeing then.
Speaker A:And it was really advantageous to be able to go in there in a quieter environment.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Even amongst 500 people, it's less than 6,000, it's less than 10,000 people.
Speaker A:So you're able to be a little bit bit more, you can dive in a little bit more in depth with some of the companies and I like that aspect.
Speaker A:So I, yeah, I'd love to see something like that.
Speaker A:I missed it that Sunday because I was still traveling, but it sounds like it really worked out well.
Speaker A:So it'll just get bigger, I'm sure.
Speaker B:And we'll do some more things to make it better.
Speaker B:And which we try to do every year.
Speaker B:So trying to think there's anything else that we've talked.
Speaker B:We have talked about maybe changing registration, not so much of the way you register.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Which, by the way, Mellie was a huge part of, like, making it so much cleaner and easier than years Pat.
Speaker B:It was easy.
Speaker B:Years past, not so much.
Speaker B:It was tough then.
Speaker B:So a huge credit to her to, like, actually kind of get that process down.
Speaker B:You know, I think when you come back from these shows, you always ask, okay, how do we make this better?
Speaker B:What are the things that we've done?
Speaker B:Asked that we could maybe tweak a little bit to improve wpi, whether it was Portrait Masters or WPPI or whatever, or Creative Live.
Speaker B:And so, like, registration is our way to maybe change that and turn it into, like a kind of a big party where you are learning and you're networking.
Speaker B:And there's, you know, we did speed networking, I think, one year registration.
Speaker B:Like, I always think there's opportunities everywhere, and I look at different things of how we can improve it at the end of the day.
Speaker A:So that's the thing I love about talking to you, is that I've never had a conversation with you where you weren't about changing something.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You're always open to change and always open.
Speaker A:How can we do this better?
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What do we need to look at?
Speaker A:Even if it's the mundane thing like registration, how do we make registration fun?
Speaker A:What do we do to entertain the crowd?
Speaker A:Because standing in a line sometimes sucks.
Speaker A:So let's do it.
Speaker A:How do you make this process of getting your badge, which is just a necessary thing, how do you make that better?
Speaker A:And I just.
Speaker A:I love how you iterate all of that and take some of this feedback.
Speaker A:In looking at Creative Live Portrait Masters, wppi, you have this wonderful knack for timing.
Speaker A:You see the landscape, and you're like, all right, this is kind of run its course.
Speaker A:Let's move on to the next thing.
Speaker A:This has run its course.
Speaker A:Let's move on to the next thing.
Speaker A:Like, do you just have an innate ability to read the landscape and know where things are headed?
Speaker A:Or is there just something inside you that, like, every five or six years, I got to do something different?
Speaker B:No, it's always been, okay, something else coming.
Speaker B:Also, I've been incredibly lucky.
Speaker B:Truly have been really lucky.
Speaker B:But there was a small part where I was, like, when I was at WPI the first time, it got Sold basically to Emerald.
Speaker B:And at that time I saw Creative Live started to kind of rise up and it was like, that is a brilliant idea.
Speaker B:This could be really cool.
Speaker B:And then I got introduced to the founder and next thing you know, like I was moving on because I kind of saw the online education part of it was going to replace a lot of the trade show part of the education.
Speaker B:You get into trade show because you are watching somebody on stage, you might take notes, but that's it.
Speaker B:You're not gonna see em.
Speaker B:You can't go back and watch stuff.
Speaker B:And so with CreativeLive, I saw that coming.
Speaker B:I went, ooh, that's really interesting.
Speaker B:I loved my time at CreativeLive.
Speaker B:For the first year and a half it was the most fun place I'd ever worked.
Speaker B:It was a startup.
Speaker B:I'd never worked in a startup before.
Speaker B:I worked.
Speaker B:We were all working six days a week and you didn't care.
Speaker B:And you were working eight to 10, you know, working 10 hour days.
Speaker B:You just didn't care.
Speaker B:It was fun, like, and we had a blast.
Speaker B:And it was like this family atmosphere which has kind of, you know, fortunately for I think my career and a lot of other people's, like we kind of took that vibe that we had at the early days of CreativeLive and applied it to supervise education and the portrait masters.
Speaker B:Like we had a really tight knit family there too.
Speaker B:And then, you know, now we have a really tight knit family that we work with now.
Speaker B:And so I've been super fortunate to work in those environments where you just know people, you know them well, you trust like, trust is such a huge part of the whole process because you know, stuff's going to get done.
Speaker B:You know, if you're going to pitch ideas, you're not going to get like, you know, thrown out of the room.
Speaker B:And not every idea is great, but like you want to be around people that'll make your ideas better.
Speaker B:And that's what I always loved about the Creative Live process.
Speaker B:But also like the Super Ice education and Fortune Masters process and the current process that I'm in right now, it's a lot of trust and it's a lot of like everybody spitting out ideas and then everybody making it better.
Speaker B:And that's what you, that's what makes like those platforms so great.
Speaker B:That's why they were so successful.
Speaker B:I've been super lucky that I kind of hit on a lot of them.
Speaker B:But just that family atmosphere is huge.
Speaker A:I like to believe we make our own luck.
Speaker A:So I'll let you be Humble for a minute.
Speaker A:But, you know, clearly there's the team element.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We can't do any of this without a team.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:You saw that inflection point with online education.
Speaker A:It feels like it was damn near perfected with Sue Bryce Education in terms of the technology, the quality of the content, the interaction with an online community and then the monetization of all of that as well.
Speaker A:How do you keep it innovative these days?
Speaker B:That is such a great question.
Speaker B:You're right.
Speaker B:I feel like the Super S education piece was one of the best communities probably ever, ever in the photo industry.
Speaker B:It was truly incredible.
Speaker B:It was amazing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, if you saw my notebook, I just scribbled down ideas and like, what's next?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Always trying to figure out what's next.
Speaker B:And there are some ideas.
Speaker B:I do think we can do a lot to improve.
Speaker B:Like I think we do a really good job of the community part at the show, but really the next kind of challenge for us is to make sure it's year round.
Speaker B:How do we create a year round community?
Speaker B:Back in the day it was like you had a magazine and everything else.
Speaker B:And then there's Facebook groups now.
Speaker B:But like this is not the same.
Speaker B:Those Facebook groups are different.
Speaker B:What's the next?
Speaker B:How do you keep people engaged year round?
Speaker B:And it's not about like selling them classes or being a part of a membership, which is great if you have something that like is super valuable.
Speaker B:I think the key is like, what's the next thing?
Speaker B:And how do we connect with people year round?
Speaker B:We've talked about, please don't quote me on this.
Speaker B:These are just the ideas that we've had.
Speaker B:But like, you know, there's road shows, there's pop up shows, like just ways to connect with people across the country.
Speaker B:We'll do that and you can even do it online.
Speaker B:I mean, I remember having a conversation with you at WPPI about like where we did during COVID where we did TPM live and you said you had other photographers come over to your studio and you guys all watched it.
Speaker B:Well, that was happening across the country, maybe even globally.
Speaker B:We had a lot of people tune in.
Speaker B:There's so much value there.
Speaker B:And to be able to like with the chat and people, people able to ask questions and I think there's something there.
Speaker B:Everything's on the table for us.
Speaker B:Mostly people are just still trying to recover from the show.
Speaker B:So we're going into planning mode next week and I've got a lot of different ideas and everybody does, which is great.
Speaker A:Conferences are like that beating heart of the industry.
Speaker A:We all wait for them.
Speaker A:We know when it's coming every year we kind of build to it and it's this, this critical event that we all attend.
Speaker A:And then there's the rest of the year.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:How do you engage the rest of the year?
Speaker A:It feels like that is shifting a bit.
Speaker A:What do you think conferences now represent for people, both new photographers and veterans?
Speaker A:Is it the same heartbeat or is it just another thing to go to knowing that we can get a ton of information online?
Speaker B:I hate to sound like a politician, but it's a little bit of both.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:Like even, like the veterans have been coming every year for 10 plus years to WPI, they're still getting stuff out of it because they're still meeting new photographers.
Speaker B:And there's also new gear being launched all the time.
Speaker B:There's all kinds of new software being launched now.
Speaker B:So it's, you still have to keep up with the times.
Speaker B:And I think that's what the trade shows and conferences do.
Speaker B:It keeps you kind of up on what's going on, which is huge.
Speaker B:I mean, AI is a big thing in our industry right now and there's a lot of companies kind of jumping in and there was quite a few of them at the show this year.
Speaker B:And so learning what they can do for you and help you and speed up, you know, editing and everything else, like, you need to go and see what's going on.
Speaker B:And I don't think just being online is going to help you do that.
Speaker B:Going to the shows, like being able to talk to the reps, being able to talk to see demos of the products and see like, okay, is this for me or not?
Speaker B:Like, and really asking those questions, that's a, it's huge.
Speaker A:There is nothing like the in person energy.
Speaker A:That's why I look forward to Portrait Masters every year is yes, I can be in the community, in the Facebook group, yes, I can watch sue and the other instructors online, but there's nothing like being around that vibe.
Speaker A:That in person element really does factor in a lot.
Speaker A:You know, let's take the AI space.
Speaker A:Evoto has kind of carved out this massive continent of, you know, mind share, thinking they are the company.
Speaker A:But you can stand in their booth and look out and see three or four other companies doing very, very similar things, very similar products.
Speaker A:So it becomes this opportunity for folks to see what else is out there.
Speaker A:Because if you're just doing, you know, online searches, the best SEO wins.
Speaker A:Maybe Evoto just owns the online market, but people don't know about product B and product C and product B out here.
Speaker A:So it was.
Speaker A:It was nice to see that there are options so that it doesn't feel like you can only be Canon, Nikon, Fujifilm.
Speaker A:You can only use a photo, you can only use Photoshop.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:There's just.
Speaker A:There's a lot more out there.
Speaker A:So yeah, I agree with you in that fact that online is great for convenience.
Speaker A:I don't think anything replaces experience and knowledge transfer like a conference.
Speaker B:That was interesting.
Speaker A:So if resources were no object, you got a big old fat wallet.
Speaker A:What are you doing?
Speaker A:The one thing.
Speaker A:The one big thing.
Speaker B:Having a great time.
Speaker B:Oh, for the show.
Speaker A:You're going to the Bahamas.
Speaker B:Bring your golf clubs are running on.
Speaker B:It's going to be awesome.
Speaker B:But what would I do with a.
Speaker B:With budget was no.
Speaker B:Was no problem.
Speaker A:Here's no problem at all.
Speaker A:None.
Speaker B:Show or for the organization or for the show.
Speaker B:That is a great question.
Speaker B:There's things I want to do that I'm kind of.
Speaker B:We can't do budget wise yet, but we're getting there.
Speaker B:But that is a really tough question.
Speaker B:I mean I'd love to have more food.
Speaker B:That's part of it.
Speaker B:Like food and beverage would be part of it.
Speaker B:We don't have a very large food and beverage minimum that we have to hit.
Speaker B:So that would be great if we could like, you know, last year everybody got coffee, which is free.
Speaker B:Coffee was fantastic.
Speaker B:Different hotel, different rules, different things.
Speaker B:You can't do it.
Speaker B:So like I thought that was a huge perk.
Speaker B:If we could have food at all, the parties would be amazing.
Speaker B:It'd be so that would be great.
Speaker B:It's just we just.
Speaker B:We're not in that position to do those type of things.
Speaker B:But to be able to like if your ticket included like meals and coffee and cocktails, it would be fantastic.
Speaker B:And your dollar would go so much further.
Speaker B:So something like that I think would be great.
Speaker B:We've done it in the past at some other shows I've been a part of.
Speaker B:So that would probably be the number one thing I always love doing.
Speaker B:The like the live stream demo stage was like my baby that we did in night.
Speaker B:I loved it.
Speaker B:I thought it was so cool.
Speaker B:It's just cost prohibitive.
Speaker B:It's really expensive to like especially the way we did it.
Speaker B:Like we did it really like Kellen and his team and Aaron put together such an amazing set and it looked great.
Speaker B:And that was basically because we can only take 500 people.
Speaker B:When we sold out that year and every we.
Speaker B:I Had a lot of vendors ask me, like, why don't you guys open this up?
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But then you lose like the kind of boutique feel of it.
Speaker B:So the, the idea was, let's do a live stream demo.
Speaker B:And B and H was the exclusive retailer.
Speaker B:And so people are just buying products there.
Speaker B:And I think there's something there.
Speaker B:We'll see.
Speaker B:But I would love to bring that back if we could or do it in a different way because that's a great way for people to demo their products where you're not going to get touch and feel, but you're going to see how people use it.
Speaker B:And I think that's still really valid.
Speaker A:You and I have had good conversations about the new media aspect of this.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:In the live streaming and how do we incorporate more people that might not necessarily have a chance to be there in person?
Speaker A:How do we engage them?
Speaker A:Vendors more?
Speaker A:How do we engage just the attendees on site a little bit more?
Speaker A:If they're running around trying to see all the things, how do they see all the things?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Is there a secondary channel that they can watch or can they catch up with a news brief at night?
Speaker A:Do you feel like conferences are gaining something from that or losing mindshare to just pure online education?
Speaker B:This is good.
Speaker B:I like this.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I have to.
Speaker B:Honestly, I have to think about that one a little bit.
Speaker B:I throw it back to you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you know, I always ask questions, I always have opinions.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I just, I'm honestly curious what people have to say.
Speaker A:For example, if you guys spent all your money on setting up live streaming and getting good wi fi and focusing all your production energy on that, I feel like the in person experience would probably suffer for that.
Speaker A:In the hopes of trying to get.
Speaker B:An online community, we did it at SBE and tpm.
Speaker B:We had like, if you remember, we were live every Tuesday, every Tuesday of the year.
Speaker B:And then we had a show like that Community.
Speaker B:We built up the community and then we decided to do a show.
Speaker B:But we didn't see probably three years in before we launched the show.
Speaker B:Two years in, kind of built that up and then started a conference.
Speaker B:So I think you can do both.
Speaker B:But all of our effort at that time was going towards the live stream, the online component of the community, building that out and build the education out.
Speaker B:It's a needle that you have to thread.
Speaker B:You got to thread that needle.
Speaker B:And it is tough.
Speaker A:It's really tough doing just in person.
Speaker A:Kind of like the, the boutique TPM feel, having everybody in one spot.
Speaker A:Everybody goes to the same classes, sees the same speakers, goes to dinner together, does all the stuff together.
Speaker A:There's such a feeling of community there.
Speaker A:It's only because you had done all the stuff during the rest of the year in the online space, and I think there was so much done in the online space, it drove people to the conference.
Speaker A:I remember, like, all right, tickets are going live, 9:00 on Tuesday.
Speaker A:I better be online because they're going to sell out like this, right?
Speaker A:It's that, that.
Speaker A:That fear of missing out, the scarcity mindset.
Speaker A:I think if we put too much energy, if we're at a conference and we put too much energy into the online stuff, you sacrifice the experience for the attendees.
Speaker A:Now, what's the use of going to the conference if I'm going to see everything online?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So it is that threading that needle of what do you want the experience to look like?
Speaker A:And this is where I think, you know, we talked about at the beginning with you and Sally and Arlene and Aaron, and the whole team are so focused on experience that there isn't a right way to do it, but there's a lot of wrong ways to do it.
Speaker A:And you guys are always very conscious of all the wrong ways that this can go and trying to eliminate as many of those variables as possible.
Speaker A:Is that relatively accurate?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's you nail right on the head.
Speaker A:So with everything moving faster, tech content platforms are popping up, every educator is popping up with their own technology platform.
Speaker A:How do you keep the soul of a conference there without it falling apart?
Speaker A:Community is one thing, but there's always this aspect of soul in a conference, right?
Speaker A:You just know that's the really cool one.
Speaker A:That's the really boutique one.
Speaker A:Every conference kind of has a reputation, and I just think of that as the soul.
Speaker A:As things move faster, how do you keep that soul?
Speaker B:Yeah, that is a really good question.
Speaker B:I always thought the biggest thing about wppi, which most people probably don't see it this way, but I really believe in the energy of that show.
Speaker B:If you went to that show three years ago, it was a different energy that you see today.
Speaker B: So when we came in for the: Speaker B:We were like, okay, we got to change the vibe.
Speaker B:We've got to change the energy of the soul.
Speaker B:It's always had a soul and it's always had good energy.
Speaker B:But we wanted to take it up.
Speaker B:And so what we did is we put a DJ in the rotunda and we threw, you know, T shirts out.
Speaker A:The T shirt cannon, The T shirt cannon.
Speaker B:People were getting banged to the head by sunglasses, you guys.
Speaker B:Sunglasses we were throwing out, which is kind of fun.
Speaker B:The energy of that show has changed, and I love it.
Speaker B:Like, again, it's always had energy, but, like, I wanted to have a thousand, two thousand plus people waiting to go into that show.
Speaker B:I felt like the dj and these are small little things that no one really thinks about, but it changes the show.
Speaker B:People walk in, they're like, okay, let's go.
Speaker B:You got some music pumping.
Speaker B:You know, there's a lot of energy that's brought in through that.
Speaker B:So the vendors feel it when those people come, when the attendees come through those doors, like, it changes things.
Speaker B:And it's the vibe, it's the soul of the show.
Speaker B:And I hope you've done a good job.
Speaker B:I hope people kind of see what we've been trying to do is really kind of pull that up a little bit and get people excited when they come to the show and feel that energy.
Speaker B:And I think maybe that's where the community kind of thing comes from, is where it was a little bit different this year because there was just a different energy.
Speaker B:And I felt like it worked the first year we did in 23.
Speaker B:I thought it was great last year, and this year, it was just like, boom.
Speaker B:You walked into that rotunda where registration was, and we had D.J.
Speaker B:lee.
Speaker B:He, by the way, is the mascot of the Golden Knights.
Speaker B:Is he really?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And he's fantastic.
Speaker B:We've worked with him forever.
Speaker B:He's awesome.
Speaker B:And then we had, like, an energy team.
Speaker B:We, like Sally and Aaron hired an energy team and these guys around, and they win the free cameras, and they were doing all this stuff, and it.
Speaker B:It made a huge difference.
Speaker B:Like, it changes the vibe of the show.
Speaker B:I've been to so many shows in photo that have had no soul, and they're boring.
Speaker B:They get the same sales show every year.
Speaker B:For me, it's like, we could do that, but that doesn't make your show better.
Speaker B:It's the same thing every year.
Speaker B:We want to keep pushing the envelope and doing new things, and again, we don't bat a thousand.
Speaker B:But I'd rather swing and strike out trying than just doing the same thing over and over again, because eventually people just don't want to see that.
Speaker B:So you have to make it, like, exciting, engaging, and people want to go.
Speaker B:It's the energy is music, the whole thing.
Speaker A:Those little things that made it, man.
Speaker A:And that energy team was disturbingly Good looking.
Speaker A:Like, they really were like, every time I was just like, why are you happy and good looking?
Speaker A:These things aren't supposed to go together.
Speaker A:They were so great.
Speaker B:They were.
Speaker A:They were amazing.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:I really was like, can I have a little bit of what you got?
Speaker A:Like, is it an extra Red Bull?
Speaker A:Like, what you got going on?
Speaker A:Might have been Wednesday.
Speaker A:I'd been standing outside with a couple of people getting some sun, that thing up in the sky that I don't see for a week, and walked back inside.
Speaker A:And it was right as the trade show was opening and there was a good crowd ready to go, and the DJ's going.
Speaker A:And there was this whole push.
Speaker A:As soon as the day started, I think it was like 10 o'clock.
Speaker A:Everybody flowed in.
Speaker A:But it was on.
Speaker A:You know, we're three, four days into the conference and all that energy was still there.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I loved it.
Speaker B:I loved.
Speaker B:I mean, I was like.
Speaker B:I couldn't stop smiling that first day.
Speaker B:The doors open.
Speaker B:It's all going to work out.
Speaker B:It's all going to be okay.
Speaker B:Going back to your first question, like, what made it different?
Speaker B:What makes conferences great?
Speaker B:It's not like, yes, the team that we have is incredible and they're amazing.
Speaker B:It's the people.
Speaker B:It's always the people that come to the show.
Speaker B:And I think we had a great.
Speaker B:Like, we had a great group this year.
Speaker B:A great group.
Speaker B:And in so much energy.
Speaker B:You felt it at, like, in the classes, and you felt it just walk around.
Speaker B:Like, everyone was happy.
Speaker B:Everyone was, like, happy to be there, happy to learn, happy to meet new people.
Speaker B:It was great.
Speaker B:It was one of the better shows in that regard.
Speaker A:I'd be probably crucified if I didn't ask something about Sue Bryce.
Speaker A:Education while you're here and your relationship with Sue.
Speaker B:We're married.
Speaker A:Creatively, you guys are powerhouses in your own respect, working together.
Speaker A:Whether it was Super Ice education or wppi.
Speaker A:How do you guys collaborate creatively?
Speaker A:And what would you say is the other person's strength?
Speaker A:What would sue say is your strength?
Speaker A:And what would you say is her strength in terms of this creative collaboration?
Speaker B:So Sue's probably the smartest person I've ever met, period.
Speaker B:Like, she is.
Speaker B:It'll just give you, like, a small smidge.
Speaker B:Like, there's a zillion things she's done, but I'll try to apply it to the trade show.
Speaker B:Sue came up with the shooting days.
Speaker B:It was her idea.
Speaker B:The first year we did them outside, it was 150 degrees.
Speaker B:We almost killed Them all.
Speaker B:I felt terrible.
Speaker B:And so she's like, what if we move into the trade show?
Speaker B:It was like, are you.
Speaker B:I was like an old school trade show guy.
Speaker B:I was like, you don't get shooting bays in the trade show.
Speaker B:What are you talking about?
Speaker B:That it's never going to work.
Speaker B:She's like, just trust me, it's going to work.
Speaker B:And we just, you know, we're like, it's not going to work.
Speaker B:And then brilliant.
Speaker B:And it was amazing.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I finally kind of saw where she was going with it and I was like, oh, my God, this is going to change the whole show.
Speaker B:It's going to change the direction of the show.
Speaker B:She is incredible in that regard.
Speaker B:She's incredible at putting content together and inspiring people and teaching people how to be better.
Speaker B:Like no one other.
Speaker B:Nobody I've ever seen.
Speaker B:And I'm taking the husband part out of this.
Speaker B:I'm just.
Speaker B:I was just looking at it.
Speaker B:There's no one better.
Speaker B:Seriously.
Speaker B:Truly the top of her game.
Speaker B:And she's been at the top for a very long time.
Speaker B:Time.
Speaker B:I think she probably say about being would be probably being more of the extrovert is like, I like to shake hands and kiss babies probably a little bit more than she does.
Speaker B:And like, that's not really like, she's great at it.
Speaker B:I enjoy it a lot more than she does.
Speaker B:And so I think that she'd probably say just like the networking Rolodex relationship part that I kind of have.
Speaker B:And then she is so incredible at like, content and also just crazy marketing ideas.
Speaker B:Like, really, really amazing ideas.
Speaker B:And so a lot of times, which I love, like, we just brainstorm.
Speaker B:We did it this morning.
Speaker B:We sat there for an hour and just break.
Speaker B:We do it every morning, which is great.
Speaker B:Like, you just bounce stuff off again.
Speaker B:It's kind of what I think has really helped my career along the way is being around people that make your ideas and you better.
Speaker B:And she makes me better.
Speaker B:And she makes my ideas better.
Speaker B:Very similar to the WPA family that we've had that I currently have.
Speaker B:They make my ideas better.
Speaker B:I hope I make theirs better.
Speaker B:But also just throughout my career, it's always been that kind of family atmosphere.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, she inspires me every day.
Speaker B:It's frustrating because she's good at everything too.
Speaker B:Like, we did.
Speaker B:We were taking walting lessons and I had been golfing for about a year and the instructor was like, okay, hey, do you guys want to go play a couple holes?
Speaker B:I was like, yeah, that's great.
Speaker B:It was a par 3.
Speaker B:She birdied the first hole that she ever played.
Speaker B:I put one in like the woods.
Speaker B:I was like, why do I even try if she does?
Speaker B:She's just good at everything.
Speaker B:It's super frustrating because I'm freakishly competitive.
Speaker B:So cheesy.
Speaker B:And so it was like, I can't win.
Speaker B:Like, I cannot win.
Speaker B:It was like this close to just quitting.
Speaker B:I was like, this is ridiculous.
Speaker B:You know, and then we've done things over the years, anything that's competitive and it's always just like, like, you know, neck and neck and we'll play pickleball and, you know, we've got a fairly long driveway.
Speaker B:We set up a pickleball court.
Speaker B:And like, I lose all the time to her.
Speaker B:She beats me all the time.
Speaker B:I'm like, I.
Speaker B:I might have a few on her, but not many.
Speaker B:I mean, they're like death match, which is great.
Speaker B:Like very competitive, but it never.
Speaker B:It kind of goes over the line.
Speaker B:Although I might have thrown a racket a couple times.
Speaker B:But yeah, I mean, we have a really good flow.
Speaker B:We have a really good.
Speaker A:The thing that I've seen over the years, just the depth of trust that you have in each other, and that's the collaboration that I think works.
Speaker A:And we were talking about trust at the beginning, is trusting your team from the outside, knowing both of you very well.
Speaker A:It's that collaborative trust that I think works really, really well as one component of your professional relationship.
Speaker A:It's learning about someone, how they work, what are their strengths, and how do you best take advantage of that.
Speaker A:If you're working together in a conference or on an education platform, how do you let people do their thing?
Speaker A:And yeah, Sue's content creation, her self value work.
Speaker A:Forget about the photo work for a second, all the other stuff.
Speaker A:She's got her finger on what is happening in the industry, what the gaps are, what people need and developing around that.
Speaker A:And I've only seen a handful of people in my entire career that are as in tune to what the greater population needs at the right time.
Speaker A:I've just seen her as a vanguard.
Speaker A:Year after year after year of just like, I should have thought of that.
Speaker A:I should have thought of God.
Speaker A:And not only just thinking about it, but she did it perfectly.
Speaker A:Like, God, yeah.
Speaker B:You know, like, I was like, damn, I should have thought of that.
Speaker B:Because, right, the part of that was our show was not like the size of WPI was, you know, 50.
Speaker B:We probably had 100 booths and 50 exhibitors.
Speaker B:And, you know, if we didn't have the shooting base.
Speaker B:I don't think TPM would have lasted that long because it kept people in the show.
Speaker B:So the vendors were happy, the attendees were happy, everybody was happy.
Speaker B:It worked perfect.
Speaker B:And I really thought it at the beginning and then was like, okay, she's right.
Speaker B:Normally I say that a lot.
Speaker A:Okay, you're right.
Speaker A:There's gotta be times where there are two amazing ideas that are battling and that there's some level of tension.
Speaker A:Which way do we go creatively?
Speaker A:How do you, as a leader, as a manager, without having to win?
Speaker A:Put your competition aside for a second.
Speaker A:But as a leader, how do you solve some of that creative tension?
Speaker B:It's a really good question.
Speaker B:I always try to look at, like, other people's ideas and figure out ways to make them better.
Speaker B:When people are pushing back on my ideas, I try to figure out, okay, is this really dumb and I.
Speaker B:Should I just hunt, or is this something you really believe in?
Speaker B:And then how do you get that person to kind of buy in it?
Speaker B:And that's really the key.
Speaker B:Like, how do you.
Speaker B:If you really believe in something, how do you get people to buy in?
Speaker B:It's kind of sales 101, in a way.
Speaker B:It's really like you have to listen.
Speaker B:Because I think that's the key to sales is listening.
Speaker B:It really is.
Speaker B:Like you have to listen to, like, their objections and figure out, okay, how do I get you over on my side?
Speaker B:And I think that's really the key to the whole thing is, is really listening and also knowing, like, you're not gonna add a thousand.
Speaker B:Like, not every idea is good.
Speaker B:So sometimes you go, okay, you got that one, and I'm probably wrong, but.
Speaker B:And other times, like, I've spot for certain things and try to get people to come around to figure out what is their biggest sticking point and how do we get them off that and kind of come back around to what we're looking to do.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think it's just.
Speaker B:It's really, at the end of the day, it's listening.
Speaker B:That's what is the key.
Speaker B:You figure out what people want, and then maybe there's a happy medium.
Speaker B:There's always a happy medium.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I truly believe that in everything that is out there, just in life in general, there's always a happy medium.
Speaker B:You're never ever going to get everything you want.
Speaker B:You're going to have to compromise this to some degree.
Speaker B:And so you make those compromises to make to get your idea over the line.
Speaker B:And maybe it wasn't exactly how you thought it Would go, you still like.
Speaker B:And if it worked, then everybody's happy.
Speaker B:If it didn't, then you're in trouble.
Speaker B:But you try to have more wins and losses in that regard.
Speaker B:But I really do believe in, like, you have to listen.
Speaker B:And I take a message that kind of idea and always applied it to all the shows.
Speaker B:Like, always.
Speaker B:I always ask, like, what did we do right?
Speaker B:What did we do wrong?
Speaker B:The right stuff.
Speaker B:I honestly, I kind of listened to I want to know what we did wrong because sometimes I can't see it.
Speaker B:And so that goes for every show I've ever been a part of since I started.
Speaker B:Was like, all right, what do we do right?
Speaker B:What do we do wrong?
Speaker B:I want to figure out what we did wrong so we don't do it again.
Speaker B:And how do we make that better, a better experience?
Speaker B:It's always like, how do we make the best experience possible for the attendees and the exhibitors?
Speaker B:Like, that is the vision.
Speaker B:I don't know if everybody thinks like that because you just see shows are the same every year.
Speaker B:I just really want to push the envelope and also, like, listen to your attendees, listen to your.
Speaker B:To your exhibitors.
Speaker B:Those.
Speaker B:That's the heartbeat you show.
Speaker B:Like, what are we doing wrong?
Speaker B:And let's fix it.
Speaker A:I think that's really important.
Speaker A:The listening aspect.
Speaker A:Has this always been your kind of like guiding North Star and.
Speaker A:Yeah, why the.
Speaker A:The photo industry?
Speaker A:You can sell pretty wear.
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:I did a few jobs, but I weirdly enough, way back when, my first job out of college was TWA Shy day, which was probably one of the best jobs besides creative live that I ever had.
Speaker B:In that Jay Shia, who's like just mogul in the ad world.
Speaker B:He had this was written everywhere, everywhere in the building.
Speaker B:Good enough is not enough.
Speaker B:And I always thought it was just so brilliant and it made you kind of better.
Speaker B:But it was just such a young, energetic kind of crew that worked there.
Speaker B:It was like Melrose Place.
Speaker B:It was crazy.
Speaker B:But then after that, and I was still really young, I was only maybe two years out of college.
Speaker B:I answered an ad out of adweek at the back of Adweek, which was for Rangefinder.
Speaker B:And they had another magazine at the time called Photo Lab Management.
Speaker B:All my friends thought I was crazy.
Speaker B:It was just like, I was like, oh, I want to get into more sales.
Speaker B:And so I started there.
Speaker B:I was there for a couple years and then left.
Speaker B:Went to outdoor Photographer for a little bit, sold for PC magazine and then got a call one day from the owner and said, hey, do you want to come back?
Speaker B:We've got an opening.
Speaker B:And I was there for 10 years.
Speaker B:It was great.
Speaker B:It was like.
Speaker B:It just was huge.
Speaker B:And I mean, those days, it was crazy because as digital started ramping up and photography became kind of more available to more people, I mean, it just exploded.
Speaker B:And from the advertiser ad aspect, and I was a publisher of Rangefinder, eventually kind of moved up to that point.
Speaker B:We were doing like Vogue style range finders.
Speaker B:Like, they were 300 plus pages.
Speaker B:It was, I remember, so fun.
Speaker B:It was amazing.
Speaker B:I had a blast.
Speaker B:And so that part was great.
Speaker B:And that's where I kind of learned.
Speaker B:You take your lumps as you go, as everybody does when you're starting out.
Speaker B:Like, I was never really good at.
Speaker B:Just like when I was at PC Mag and some of the other kind of more corporate sales jobs, like, here's the PowerPoint and we just go through and you're just doing a PowerPoint.
Speaker B:You're clicking, you're like.
Speaker B:That was never my style.
Speaker B:I hated it.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:What I really wanted was like, what are you looking for?
Speaker B:Is this a brand kind of play?
Speaker B:Is this more of a leads kind of play?
Speaker B:Like just asking the questions?
Speaker B:And if you ask the right questions, people are going to give you all the answers and you can lead them exactly where you kind of want to go.
Speaker B:That's always been kind of my philosophy.
Speaker B:And I think it just happened just by getting beat up when I was younger and figuring out what you were good at and what you weren't.
Speaker B:And that's kind of like part of growing up is like, what you're good at is you find out kind of quick and you find out really quick what you're not good at.
Speaker B:Like, I was.
Speaker B:My first job at Chia Day was I was approving expense reports, which is like, I think every manager that I've ever had, I think I've been scolded so many times.
Speaker B:You got to get your expense reports in.
Speaker B:You got to get.
Speaker B:I just never got my.
Speaker B:I hated filling it out.
Speaker B:It's just terrible.
Speaker B:But like, all these.
Speaker B:I was getting the whole company's expense reports, and that was the.
Speaker B:Like, I just would be like, I would just rubber stamp everything.
Speaker B:$5,000 dinner.
Speaker B:That sounds like I was terrible, terrible, terrible.
Speaker B:You kind of figure out as you go, you take odd jobs and weird stuff and you figure out what works, what does it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then next thing you know, you're over 50.
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:I don't want to be the guy today approving your expense reports.
Speaker A:I just don't want to be that guy.
Speaker A:I would rubber stamp them, don't get me wrong.
Speaker A:But I'm like, that's a lot of zeros.
Speaker A:So as we start to.
Speaker A:As we start to land this plane, I love Good enough is not enough.
Speaker A:Love that.
Speaker A:Wrote it down.
Speaker A:We got a big box around it.
Speaker A:Good enough is not enough.
Speaker A:As you're looking forward.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:You can get out of this business anytime you want, but I know you're in it because you love it.
Speaker A:What do you see as legacy building for you?
Speaker A:What would you want to leave behind?
Speaker B:In every job that I've ever had, I always want to leave it in better.
Speaker B:A better place than how I found it.
Speaker B:I think we were on that path for WQBI now.
Speaker B:I think when we took it over, it was maybe not the best shape.
Speaker B:It was still going to be fine, but I think we really kind of amped it up a little bit.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's always been, like, kind of my goal.
Speaker B:Leave it better now than when you found it.
Speaker B:So that's kind of been my principle, and I hope that it's kind of been that way throughout my career being.
Speaker A:At now, I don't know, 7, 8, 9, 10 of these conferences, you know, where you're around, it's clear where your imprint is and where it's not.
Speaker A:There hasn't been one year over year where I didn't see something improve.
Speaker A:Some years are better than others, obviously, but there's always this focus on the community.
Speaker A:There's always focus on improvement.
Speaker A:And now hearing you say that, I'm like, oh, wow.
Speaker A:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because this is what has happened every time you get this wave of complaints, feedback, let's call it, there's something that changes the following year directly because of that feedback.
Speaker A:I don't think you would get that if people didn't give a shit about what they were doing.
Speaker A:And so clearly you pay attention.
Speaker A:You love seeing this stuff happen, and you're really good at it.
Speaker B:So I just thank.
Speaker B:I appreciate that.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, I really appreciate being able to show up at a show feeling welcome.
Speaker A:You're a consummate oath, right?
Speaker A:You make everybody feel welcome.
Speaker A:You have that thing that I don't have.
Speaker A:You remember people's names.
Speaker A:You remember what they do.
Speaker A:Me, I walk up and I could be like, and your name is.
Speaker A:You're like, my name is George.
Speaker A:We've met every year for the past 10 years.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, yeah, no, now I know.
Speaker A:Yeah, of course.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:I'm terrible.
Speaker B:Like, it's so hard to, you know, everyone.
Speaker B:I don't think you give yourself enough credit.
Speaker B:You know, a lot of people, everybody knows who you are, especially in the TPM community.
Speaker B:Everybody knows you're one of those outgoing guys.
Speaker B:And the one thing that.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:My biggest regret from wqb, I truly believe this, is that we didn't get to have a drink like we always do at the end of the show, because it's always great to, like, kind of chop it up and like, hey, what did we do right?
Speaker B:What did we do wrong?
Speaker B:And you're always very honest, without any sharp edges, which I appreciate, because, like, sharp edges always makes people, like, get a little defensive.
Speaker B:And it's never like that.
Speaker B:It's always like, you know, this maybe kind of didn't work.
Speaker B:The way you.
Speaker B:You phrase things and position it.
Speaker B:I really appreciate.
Speaker B:Because it's not like there's not enough protein at breakfast or something like that.
Speaker B:You know, there's not enough coffee.
Speaker B:It's, like, very constructive.
Speaker B:And I always appreciate constructive criticism.
Speaker B:You don't always want to hear it, right, because it's tough because you just poured your heart and soul into these things.
Speaker B:But you always do it in a way that is super constructive and beneficial to everybody.
Speaker B:Because, like, I feel like your feedback is really on point and I always enjoy it.
Speaker B:And we always have a few drinks at the end of the show, and it's great.
Speaker B:We didn't get to do that this year.
Speaker A:No, I appreciate it.
Speaker A:And that was.
Speaker A:That was my fault.
Speaker A:Because you're like, hey, we're getting that drink.
Speaker A:And I'm like, it's 4 in the morning, I gotta go home.
Speaker A:And, yes, we'll have a drink tomorrow.
Speaker A:And then I was on a flight.
Speaker B:Wait, maybe it wasn't.
Speaker A:Maybe it wasn't that late, but it felt that way.
Speaker A:It was probably 7:00pm no, thank you.
Speaker B:Thank you for saying that.
Speaker A:I think, you know, I got the WPPI survey, and I was just as honest in there.
Speaker A:I'm like, hey, I'd love to see this.
Speaker A:Yes, this could be a little bit better.
Speaker A:But I never like to hear people make it all about their agenda.
Speaker A:This conference didn't fit me and what I wanted perfectly.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I always try to take the larger view of it and say, okay, what are the things that I didn't like that are personal versus.
Speaker A:If I look at the conference, did I get out of it the value that I paid for it?
Speaker A:And if I did, then I got no complaints.
Speaker A:If I can say I got the value out of it.
Speaker A:I got no complaints, right?
Speaker A:But if you want to hear me bitch and moan, I'll.
Speaker A:I'll find a million things to bitch and moan about, but no one wants to hear that, right?
Speaker A:I think the surveys are really, really important for people to fill out so that you guys can get a real finger on the pulse of what people are feeling.
Speaker A:You know, if anybody got that and, and didn't fill it out, your fault.
Speaker A:Next year if you don't see what it is that bothered you.
Speaker A:That's the way I feel about it.
Speaker A:Hot take.
Speaker B:That is.
Speaker B:That's a good thing.
Speaker B:The interesting thing is, like, I read every comment, every single comment in every group that I'm a part of.
Speaker B:I never reply because I don't want to get into this, like, online small, like, that's weird.
Speaker B:But I truly, like, read every single one.
Speaker B:And some of them, I feel like, okay, that's a little off.
Speaker B:That's a little.
Speaker B:I feel like you've got an agenda looking for attention.
Speaker B:But a lot of them are constructive, and we.
Speaker B:I take them and we try to implement some of them.
Speaker B:You know, we can't move the show back to the mgm.
Speaker B:That's just not going to happen.
Speaker B:But, like, other little things, like, we can.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's a lot of improvement that we can make to the summits, and we can.
Speaker B:I do read all that stuff.
Speaker B:And so the surveys I will dive into for hours and try to figure out, like, okay, where does this whole thing go?
Speaker B:Because I think it's really important to.
Speaker B:To know what the community is saying and trying to make the show better.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's hard sometimes.
Speaker B:It's really hard to read because again, you're pouring.
Speaker B:And our team reads it and we discuss it, and it's really hard when you're, you know, you're pouring your.
Speaker B:Your heart into this thing and then someone's just hammering you and that those times are tough, but you have to read them and you have to take the good with the bad.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:And even the ones that you don't agree with, you go, okay, why are they coming at this with this sort of complaint?
Speaker B:And again, it just kind of goes back.
Speaker B:You got to listen to people, people, and there's.
Speaker A:There's always something that pops out as, like, what they're really saying is this is.
Speaker A:They were pissed off because they didn't have water in their system.
Speaker A:Like, whatever it is.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So get it.
Speaker B:I don't know if I would go to Facebook to.
Speaker B:To say that, but that's just Me.
Speaker A:Everybody wants a megaphone.
Speaker A:So says the guy with the podcast.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But on the flip side of that, how else are they gonna, like, like, tell their story like they were not happy with whatever happened?
Speaker B:Like, I don't blame people for doing it.
Speaker B:I get it.
Speaker B:And actually kind of, like, I like it to some degree.
Speaker B:It's the only way we get better.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's truly the only way we can get better.
Speaker A:Yeah, it truly shows.
Speaker A:So thank you.
Speaker A:I'm really looking forward to next year.
Speaker A:I know you're going to pull something out that is going to blow people away next year.
Speaker A:This year really was a level up.
Speaker A:As someone that's been to so many of these, you really did step up this year after the end of the mgm.
Speaker A:I think it can only get better from here.
Speaker A:So, you know, just kudos to you and the entire team.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:I really appreciate it.
Speaker A:I really appreciate you being here, man.
Speaker A:I am going to link everything.
Speaker A:Wppi, forums or whatnot.
Speaker A:Is there any place in particular that people can go if they want to just go to the Facebook group and type in there or send an email.
Speaker B:Always email.
Speaker B:Seriously, I am just all over email all the time.
Speaker B:I'm not one of those people that has like 24,000 unread emails.
Speaker B:Like, I'm zero at all times.
Speaker B:Like, I read them and I try to reply fairly quickly.
Speaker B:So if people have specific comments or questions or anything about the show, I might not be able to, like, personally help you, but I'll find somebody that will.
Speaker B:So my email, which is different than most people because I am a consultant.
Speaker B:So it's george@digital productstudios.com digital products studios.com Cool.
Speaker A:Thank you, man, for being here.
Speaker A:I've been wanting to have this conversation for years.
Speaker A:I'm glad we're able to make it happen.
Speaker A:And I can't wait to see.
Speaker A:I'll come out to Scottsdale.
Speaker A:We'll play some golf.
Speaker B:Let's go, let's go.
Speaker B:Thank you again.
Speaker B:This has been great.
Speaker B:I really enjoyed it.
Speaker B:I always enjoy our conversation.
Speaker B:So it was awesome.
Speaker B:I love your podcast.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:You got it, man.
Speaker A:I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker A:Bye.
Speaker B:All right, buddy.
